Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 15:11:11 -0800
Davi Joseph wrote:
Lil Joe, How can you fight for the unity of workers without reaching out to the largest demographic in the western world (European American working poor)?
Lil Joe Response: There is only one world economy, the capitalist global economics of commodity production by wageworkers. Capital accumulates only by the exploitation of labor in capitalist commodity production. I don't have to 'reach out' to any workers based on what you call race or demographics: the emancipation of the working class is the task of the working classes themselves.
The European proletariat is the oldest, most class-conscious (they know class war isn't what you call a "game") and are organized not only in powerful labor unions engaged in labor struggles (which you think are fun and games) but are also organized into, or affiliated with Social-Democratic, Socialist, Labor and Communist Parties, and are always in motion against capital and the state.
The workers in Iraq are in shooting wars with capitalism represented by US and British armies, and the working poor of Palestine and Israel are coming to class conscious politics. Workers in Haiti are in shooting wars with Capital, represented by the UN. The workers in Argentina are shaking the whole Latin American capitalist foundation, resulting in socialist rhetoric if not policies being endorsed in elections in Venezuela, and Chile.
Davi Joseph wrote:
Did hurricane Katrina teach us anything?
Lil Joe Response:
It taught me that the American ruling classes are not fit to rule America, that their government is incapable of providing its citizens with a safe environment, the levees for instance. It also showed how the American media could manipulate you into ignoring the millions of poor white victims in Mississippi and Louisiana, which shows the reality of class oppression, by segregating out the Blacks in New Orleans only, thus turning attention from the crumbling infrastructure and the crisis of capitalism, the unfitness of government, into an issue of psychology, "racism".
Davi Joseph wrote:
European Americans for good or bad have a tremendous amount of influence in the world. Just look at the labor movements of the late 19th and early 20th centuries in America. America impacts the world in every area of human activity one can think of (military, economic, political, media, sports/entertainment, sex/culture, religion, science/technology, and labor).
Lil Joe Response:
Where do you get your history from? America was irrelevant in world affairs in the 19th century, and became important in the 20th century, only because during world wars 1&2 the European capitalist governments destroyed each others infrastructures and industries, while the European capitalists themselves invested in America to make money off those wars!
This explains the rise of the American military, economic and political power and influence in the first half of the 20th century. But, by the Marshall Plan, and investments in US government bonds the European capitalists along with American capitalists made money rebuilding Europe's destroyed infrastructures and industries, more advanced than the American industries that transferred its most advanced technologies to do the building. Japan was similarly rebuilt by advanced technologies, specifically steel.
By the Mid-1960s the European components of capital were in place, advanced technology and coal needed to fire production having merged under the auspices of the European Economic Community made Germany and France relatively self-sufficient, except for dependency on oil imports from Middle Asia and North Africa needed to over all energize European industrial production. The economic consolidation of European capital resulted in the political consolidation of the EEC into the European Union, represented by the Euro.
Once again America was becoming economically irrelevant, left behind with its polluting smokestack industries, and crumbling infrastructure. That, among other things were exposed and is the objective significance of Katrina, not "racism". This also explains the war in Iraq, to control Europe's dependency on Middle Asian oil for energy, and why the US policy makers are planning on bombing Iran. Iran, like Iraq, is going into Euro currency.
Davi Joseph wrote:
We must start speaking to hearts and minds of Europeans most impacted by the global policy of the "new world order". The so called "civil rights movement' helped get "white women" classified as minorities in the workplace and business world. Why is that? What was the impact?
Lil Joe Response:
There is no "new world order" - the World Market has dominated countries since the 17th century - even the American War of Independence was in response to the World-Market being dominated by Britain. Ditto the Civil War, insomuch as to break the economic union of the Southern States agrarian capitalist commodity production by slave-labor conflicted with the interests, rivalry with England of industrial capitalist commodity production in the North East. It was the British working classes that both ended the legality of the slave trade and prevented England from supporting the Confederacy in the Civil War.
As regards what you call the "so-called" civil rights movement, Black racialism - so-called Black nationalism and racial pan-Africanism - were opposed to it from the very beginning. Edward Blyden opposed the ending of slavery, and worked with the racist American colonization society whose goal was to get rid of free Blacks, setting them up as an American colony in Africa; Marcus Garvey's Universal Negro Improvement Association worked with the Ku Klux Klan, and Elijah Muhammad and Malcolm X worked with Rockwell and the American Nazi Party. Ostensibly "Black revolutionaries", Black racialists were thoroughly reactionary and sexists. Thus their opposition to the civil rights movement and women's liberation movements.
I am therefore not surprised that all you see in it, and regarding it is that white women were classified as minorities, since "Black nationalists were/are reactionaries in opposition to both civil rights breaking down the walls of segregation, and to feminist emancipation of women - all women including Black women. They wanted to keep Blacks segregated so as to have an exclusive market of the Black bourgeoisie, and women bare foot, pregnant and in the kitchen.
Davi Joseph wrote:
We must communicate to working class Europeans that it is in their best interest to unite with African, Latinos, and Asians. They have not gotten this message. They still think in terms of "race" (class). They confuse their "race" for class privilege. When "they" get it, we will be able to unite to fight injustice in labor and all other levels of human activity.
Lil Joe Response:
It is not in the "best interest" of working class Europeans to unite with Africans, Latinos and Asians! Rather, it is in the class interests of all workers to unite as workers with workers, regardless of nationality, race, creed, color. But, on this, I asked you a question which you continue to avoid -- , what is your analysis of capitalisms function in creating and maintaining racism? What do you see as your role in overcoming racism and destroying capitalism? Do you want to destroy capitalism? What is your suggestions for how the working class can win state power, either by elections or civil war, while racial divisions abound?
Davi Joseph wrote:
Joe, my point is that "race" and class are stumbling blocks for most of our European brothers and sisters. Some think if they are "white" in complexion and earn $40K per year, they are superior to Africans that make twice as much. What can we do to change their vision of themselves and the world around them?
Lil Joe Response:
When you see the news on Iraq, you see Black and White Americans from the working classes and American poverty working together killing working class Iraqis, without loving each other. I don't recall you denouncing this, or advocating that Black and White Americans should love Iraqi workers, or stop killing them.
I don't have any "European brothers and sisters"; nor, for that matter any African "brothers and sisters". This is not a family matter. I don't care what people of "white" complexion, who earn $40K per year think about rich "black" capitalists. I have no psychological program to change their "vision of themselves", nor for that matter your vision of yourself.
The class struggle is not about clairvoyant mind reading, or making people love one another or kiss each others asses, which is really what Black racialists want White workers to do - to kiss your ass, accept Black supremacy and give jobs and school slots in the name of self-hating anti-racism racism.
No, the class struggle is about workers understanding that they have common economic interests in fighting their common exploitation, their common objective in expropriating the productive forces. Proletarians qua wage workers come together as equals in labor unions predicated upon social labor in production, and this, not altruism is the basis for political associations, fighting side by side on the battle fields, not because they love each other, but because they must. Workers are compelled to "reach out" to one another without regard to race, creed or color, forming international political associations because they have no choice.
Davi Joseph wrote:
They will have to feel economic pain of the "South" (Africa, Asia, and South America) before they think to change. That is unfortunate, but that is the reality on the ground. Europeans don't want the truth, they just want to be told how great they have been to the development of the planet.
Lil Joe Response:
Rather the opposite! The anti-worker/anti-communist Black bourgeois nationalist/racialists don't want American Black proletarians to know the truth. These illusory racial geographical demographic concepts of racially exploitive/oppressive working class in geographic demographics of a unified "North", exploiting/oppressing a racial geographic demographic "South", has no empirical basis.
Working classes of Europe and America are exploited by the European, and American capitalists as are the working classes, and the toiling masses of the "South".
In fact, proletarians in Europe, Japan and the United States operating as skilled laborers produce relatively higher rates of surplus (unpaid) labor than do less skilled 3rd world workers and toilers, thus the workers in the "North" are more exploited than are workers in the "South".
The presentation of workers in Europe, Japan and the United States, as ostensible results of privilege, is the presentation of appearances as reality, blaming the exploited workers of one country for the exploitation of workers of another, without recognizing that the quintessence of capitalist commodity production by wageworkers is the exploitation of the global proletariat.
That proletarians in Europe and the United States, have a relatively higher wage/standard of living than workers in Africa, Asia and Latin America, only because capitalism is older, thus labor struggles more advanced enabling them to demand more income/wages, and get more.
The material comforts of proletarian life are produced as commodities by these same workers, are themselves the product of advanced technology. Workers in Europe, Japan and America are the customers with the wages needed to pay, buy. But, American workers in particular live in debt, are overworked and underpaid, always living from paycheck to paycheck and on the verge of bankruptcy. There are no "race privileges".
Thus, this relatively higher standard of living of workers in the developed capitalist countries is the result of history, and not of these doubly exploited workers in any way participating in the exploitation or/and oppression of 3rd world workers.
And the Northerners being motivated by altruistic "feelings" for their victims is melodramatic crap!
You want to present as a precondition to working with "white" workers that they give up their jobs and schools to "Blacks", mealy mouth how great Black pharaohs were, and that Europeans were savages civilized by Africans, how ignorant American Indians of Central America needed African kings to civilize them...
Your precondition is that White workers cannot be socialists without kissing Black asses, as does Tim Wise. It isn't going to happen; nor should it.
Tim Wise gets paid to present every socioeconomic and political crisis in American capitalism and politics as an "issue of racism" - like him, you too never critique capitalistic causes, but poor White proletarians as the cause, as if they have the power to determine who is to be exploited, and who victimized by capitalism. Tim Wise, whose articles you forward notwithstanding he is a "White man", works for the capitalist class by diverting blame to the working poor.
Since when has universal altruism become the precondition for political or social revolution? People make revolutions because it is in their material interests to do so.
The English Middle Classes didn't love English peasants and artisans as a precondition for the Lower House or Parliament displacing the House of Lords and the Monarchy in their Revolutions, and neither did the American signers of the Declaration of Independence love their African slaves, nor the "White" yeomen for that matter, as a precondition for throwing off the British political domination of their class in America.
The French bourgeoisie didn't make loving French peasants a precondition for overthrowing the monarchy, and I could go on concerning instances of bourgeois-democratic revolutions in Europe. The proletarians participated in these revolutions, and it was by their own efforts in making these revolutions permanent that they forced legislation in their interests - such as the Bill of Rights in America, and the Declaration of Rights of Man and Citizens in France.
The American Civil War wasn't motivated because the Senators in the Union States loved Africans in bondage in the African chattel slaves in the Confederate States, but because it was in the interests of industrial capitalist commodity production by wageworkers to destroy agrarian capitalist commodity production by chattel slavery, because of their competition with rival capitalist industrial production by wage-slavery in England.
Although certain revolutionaries might be motivated by love or/and ideals, this is not their appeal to the broad masses. People engage in revolutionary wars because it is in their material self-interests to do so, and because the then/ as now/ existing ruling classes and governments leave them /us/ no alternative but to rise, and if necessary kill.
Besides, there is no "South"! It is the bourgeois in Latin America, Africa and Asia who are exploiting their own countries workers and toilers who came up with this anti-globalization con game, to get better deals for themselves relative to the imperialist "West". In fact, there are Western based transnational corporations in these '3rd world countries' whose investments in those countries economies only have 'people of color' fronting as owners, who are the "South".
All workers are exploited by the same transnational capitalists, and they will fight their class enemy because they have no choice, not because they are Christ like altruists. This is the "truth" that you don't want, you just want to be told how great Black pharaohs were, how ignorant American Indians of Central America needed African kings to civilize them, and how White workers cannot be socialists without kissing Black asses. It isn't going to happen; nor should it.
Davi Joseph wrote:
Capitalism has not worked for India and most of the "other world". The jury may still be out on China. Can a different system work while respecting the rights of the individual and their freedom? Show me the blueprint and I will carry it to the mountain top.
Lil Joe wrote:
Revolutions are not altruistic activities, nor are they based on bourgeois delusions of "respecting the rights of individuals and their freedom".
Hitherto speaking, concerning each and every revolution throughout history, and certainly the bourgeois revolutions I mentioned above, albeit in the name of democracy and "respecting the rights of the individual and their freedom" in reality were acts of insurrectionary violence whereby the rising classes forced their material interests on society. These revolutions were by violence denying the "rights" i.e. property rights, and "freedoms", i.e. class privileges, of the hitherto existing ruling classes.
The socialistic proletarian revolutions will be no different. It only shows the extent to which Americans have been assimilated in the American bourgeois culture of lies and delusions, about States and revolutions, that you would even ask such a question, and present acceptance of recognition of illusory bourgeois rights as a pre-condition for proletarian revolutions.
You and me are in America, Davi. This discussion isn't about capitalism in India or China, it is about capitalism and class struggle in America. Do you want to destroy capitalism in the US? If so, how do you propose that revolution in America can be achieved by respecting the rights of capitalists to own the productive forces and exploit wageworkers, and at the same time expropriate them of these productive forces and emancipate proletarians from wage labor?
How? These questions are real, not rhetorical.
I didn't say anything about 'bad apples',I said that you were a racist. Since when did you become the defender of Jews? All that anti-Semitic crap you initially posted to this list. We are here fighting for unity of workers of every country and nationality within countries, and your purpose is just the opposite.
You post racial article and never give any analysis of the hate crimes, or how to over come them. You are no different than the Ku Klux Klan, and operate from the same policy - disruption of the struggle of workers to overcome bigoted divisions and come together as a class. You have never presented a single article or analysis of your own in how to overcome racial divisions in a struggle for state power.
I know that the American working class is comprised of ignorant bigots and religious fanatics and reactionaries, because that's what your socialization made you. And, as such this list and the Labor Party has to accept you just as you are. But, that doesn't mean that I have to capitulate to your bigotry or accept it as the way it is.
Davi, what is your analysis of capitalisms function in creating and maintaining racism? What do you see as your role in overcoming racism and destroying capitalism? Do you want to destroy capitalism? What is your suggestions for how the working class can win state power, either by elections or civil war, while racial divisions abound?
From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]On Behalf Of DAVI JOSEPH
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 6:53 AM
Subject: [laborpartypraxis] Russia Struggles to Contain Hate Crimes
Some people think it's just a few bad apples involved in the oppression of Jews and Africans.
Russia Struggles to Contain Hate Crimes
August 5, 2004
By Sergei Blagov
Moscow -- A series of violent attacks and incidents with an apparent racist motive has added to Russia's reputation as a country where xenophobia is unchecked and on the rise.
Last week, Siberia's oldest synagogue was destroyed in a fire. Authorities investigating the fire at the 125-year-old Irkutsk synagogue and adjoining community center have so far ruled out arson, but the incident has contributed to concerns about anti-Semitic sentiment. Around 10,000 of Irkutsk's 675,000 people are Jewish. Earlier in July, vandals painted swastikas and anti-Jewish slogans on the walls of a Jewish community center in Russia's internal republic of Mari-El. The building had been targeted before.The most serious recent incident occurred last June, when a prominent expert on Russian minorities issues, Nikolai Girenko, was shot dead in his St. Petersburg home. Police suspect neo-Nazis were behind the killing. Girenko, 64, had been an advisor in 15 top-profile court cases which saw extremists convicted. In the last such case before his death, he was a witness in the trial of a neo-Nazi group called Schultz-88 (88 is an international "skinhead" code for Heil Hitler, H being the eighth letter of the alphabet). Before the shooting, an obscure group, Russian Republic, posted on an Internet website a "verdict" issued by its self-styled government, sentencing Girenko to death. It called him "an enemy of the Russian people" who was guilty of helping to imprison "patriots." St. Petersburg prosecutors said they were investigating the web site, and vowed to solve the murder, assigning 120 investigators and turning the case over to a newly-created department specializing in hate crimes.
At the same time, officials have not ruled out the possibility that he was the victim of a random crime or hooliganism. No arrests have yet been made. The Union of Councils for Jews in the Former Soviet Union (UCSJ) has appealed to the authorities to take seriously the murder in particular, and "extremist activity and xenophobic incidents in general."
According to the Moscow Human Rights Bureau, between 2002 and 2004 the number of skinheads in Russia has risen from 30,000 to 50,000. The office predicts that number could double in the next two years.
St. Petersburg has become a focus of hate crimes, prompting the Novye Izvestia daily to ask in a commentary whether the city was "the cradle of Russian Nazism." Racially-motivated murders there have included those of a nine-year-old Tajik girl last February and a six-year-old Roma girl almost a year ago. However, Russia's smaller urban centers face similar problems. Voronezh in Central Russia is known as a center for skinhead activity. An African medical student was killed there last February, and in recent months human rights activists in the city have complained about attacks and harassment by extremists. Despite repeated official pledges to crack down, Russia is struggling to contain racial violence. Many non-Russian migrants from former Soviet states do not feel safe, having fallen prey to violent incidents.
Some attacks also have an economical motivation. Many market stalls in Moscow and other centers are run by traders from neighboring states such as Azerbaijan and Georgia and they are often targeted for attack. Victims often complain that some police officers are themselves racist and that random document checks, detentions and even beatings of migrants are commonplace. Authorities point out, however, that measures like document checks are needed amid the recent increase in terrorist attacks in Russia.
The Russian government has been working on an education program aimed at fostering tolerance among its citizens and in the police force. However, last June the government decided to discontinue its $860,000-a-year "Tolerance" from next year. Russia's Constitution and laws forbid statements and actions that "incite ethnic and religious strife," but few have been punished for making such remarks. Some perpetrators of racial or religiously motivated violence have, on the other hand, been punished. Last month a Moscow court sentenced five skinheads aged between 17 and 22 to prison terms ranging from nine to 14 years. They were found guilty of involvement in the beating to death of an ethnic Azeri and an Armenian in December 2003.
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